diagnosing bridge pickup of '97 Fly Deluxe

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chrisjscott
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diagnosing bridge pickup of '97 Fly Deluxe

Post by chrisjscott »

I picked up my first Parker Fly about a year ago and love it as an instrument but the bridge pickup is really killing me - I like the neck but the bridge is so thin and so out of balance with the neck that I can't help but to think it might be broken. Unfortunately, I have no way of A/Bing it with another pre-'99 instrument (ie when they started using the Gen 2 Dimarzio pickups) so I can't tell if this is just the way they were or if it's actually malfunctioning.

Yes, I realize that (it seems) that the OG pickups were disappointing but, like, this thing is basically a weak-sounding single-coil.

I wrote to Dimarzio, on the off-chance they'd have some input - got an immediate, lengthy response (which I greatly appreciate) but the tech clearly wasn't aware of the Parker's full history, as he was under the impression that PHWP1/2 were the original pickups.

So I'm looking for some experienced input on a few fronts here:
  • Does my characterization of the bridge pickup sound accurate to others who own <1999 Flys?
  • Does anybody have any suggestion re. how do diagnose whether or not this pickup may be malfunctioning (say, what a proper meter read would be on one of these?
  • Has anybody here swapped the bridge pickup for a PHWP2 and, if so, how does it compare?

Thanks!
'97 Parker Fly Deluxe (emerald green)
'97 Parker NiteFly NFV4 (black-signed by KP)
Parker PDF60 (white-hacked w/ EMGs & a Roland GK-3)
Parker PDF70 (currently being hacked up)
raw Parker Nitefly body and neck from Wilmington
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Patzag
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Re: diagnosing bridge pickup of '97 Fly Deluxe

Post by Patzag »

I can't provide measurements and other tech input, but my bridge pickup is absolutely NOT thin or weak.
Something's wrong.
I'd start with checking the wiring.
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mmmguitar
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Re: diagnosing bridge pickup of '97 Fly Deluxe

Post by mmmguitar »

@chrisjscott, Any way you'd be willing to post photos of the pickups, and/or a short video comparing the sounds of each pickup? Confirming the era of production visually (via the DImarzio logo font) will be helpful to others who find this thread.

There are a number of things which could be causing the symptoms you describe: It could be the pickup coming unwound, a fault at the mag/mix/piezo switch causing the piezo signal to be present at all times, a fault in the magnetic pickup selector switch causing the bridge pickup's series connected wires to be grounded (essentially, the switch would be partially "sticking" between positions and causing the bridge pup to be permanently split), or even just a weak solder connection in the bridge pickup's signal path.

It's difficult to diagnose through text alone, unless all parties have a clear understanding of the signal path and how to troubleshoot at each component in the flow:

1. Does changing the 9v battery affect the issue, at all? If not:

2. With the mag/mix/piezo toggle set to select magnetic pickups-only, and the magnetic pickup selector switched to neck, neck+bridge, and bridge, does turning the piezo volume and tone controls to 10 or 0 affect the sound of the other pickups? Also try it with the stereo/mono switch in both positions. If nothing changes:

3. Does turning the magnetic volume and tone pots to 10 or 0 and then switching between neck, neck+bridge, and bridge mitigate the thin, wimpy sound of the bridge pup at any point? If not:

4. A visual inspection of the components with the rear cavity cover removed is required, along with a multimeter reading of the Ω of each pickup's start wire connection to the mag selector switch, then a reading of the series connection on the same switch (which Ken-era Flys were wired up with).

If those steps haven't revealed the issue, then some deeper exploration is warranted; which may include desoldering the bridge pup's series connection wires from the mag selector switch to see if the issue is alleviated (indicating a fault in the switch), or replacing the bridge pup entirely.
Summary of the Parker Guitars speculator market from 2020 onward: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory
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Voice Of Reason
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Re: diagnosing bridge pickup of '97 Fly Deluxe

Post by Voice Of Reason »

I concur…the bridge pickup is not weak at all.

If it is an output issue, adjusting the pickups’ height can help balancing things out. Perhaps only the bridge pickup has been set too low?

Anyhow, reposting this as a guide (source: VJ):
731AFE7A-9BBF-4319-823D-02FDFEF75E98.jpeg
1998 Fly Classic
chrisjscott
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Re: diagnosing bridge pickup of '97 Fly Deluxe

Post by chrisjscott »

@mmmguitar Thank you for the amazing reply; I'll work to pull together some of the additonal info you request.

I wanted to post back here re. my earlier reply where I was describing the response I got from Dimarzio - turns out I misinterpreted that reply (I mistakenly thought they were referring to Gen2 pickups). A follow-up revealed that (naturally), I was misunderstanding and that, in fact, the Gen1 bridge pickup is a PHWB1 (a designation I'd never seen before) and, further, that an initial step towards troubleshooting would be:
If you want to at least partially check the pickup, you might disconnect it from the selector switch and measure the DC resistance of the coils. The red/black coil should measure approx. 8.4Kohms and the green/white coil approx. 9.2 Kohms
I'm posting this because a) I want to publicly apologize to the Dimarzio tech for questioning their info (on the off-chance they troll this forum!) and b) I thought these details might prove useful to others.

I'll start by testing the pickup as per these instructions and, if it turns out my readings are way off then I'll work with Dimarzio to get it repaired or replaced. If my readings are in-line then I'll ppst further info here and request feedback!
'97 Parker Fly Deluxe (emerald green)
'97 Parker NiteFly NFV4 (black-signed by KP)
Parker PDF60 (white-hacked w/ EMGs & a Roland GK-3)
Parker PDF70 (currently being hacked up)
raw Parker Nitefly body and neck from Wilmington
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mmmguitar
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Re: diagnosing bridge pickup of '97 Fly Deluxe

Post by mmmguitar »

Thanks for sharing the cool info from (I'm assuming) Steve Blucher. I'll piggyback onto that with this info published by DarthPhineas (a familiar name in many gear communities): Here are his measurements of the Dimarzio Tone Zone (which the PHWB1 essentially is), for reference (Note that these measurements vary according to factors such as ambient temperature and; thusly, should be regarded as "within operating tolerances"):

Series – 17.906 K
Series Inductance – 8.423 H

Coil with red/black wires (Screw coil in Tone Zone) – 8.385 K
Screw Split Inductance – 3.456 H

Coil with green/white wires (Slug coil in Tone Zone) – 9.543 K
Slug Split Inductance – 3.889 H

Parallel – 4.466 K
Magnet – Alnico 5
Output – 375 mV
Summary of the Parker Guitars speculator market from 2020 onward: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory
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vjmanzo
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Diagnosing and restoring a thin-sounding weak bridge pickup

Post by vjmanzo »

Lots of very great info in this thread! 🙏 Very helpful!


#PickupIssues
chrisjscott
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Re: diagnosing bridge pickup of '97 Fly Deluxe

Post by chrisjscott »

@mmmguitar So, what you're saying is that I may have questioned the knowledge of Steve Blucher himself?

Oh, GREAT! Smooth move on my part :shock: ...
'97 Parker Fly Deluxe (emerald green)
'97 Parker NiteFly NFV4 (black-signed by KP)
Parker PDF60 (white-hacked w/ EMGs & a Roland GK-3)
Parker PDF70 (currently being hacked up)
raw Parker Nitefly body and neck from Wilmington
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Voice Of Reason
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Re: diagnosing bridge pickup of '97 Fly Deluxe

Post by Voice Of Reason »

chrisjscott wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 12:20 pm @mmmguitar So, what you're saying is that I may have questioned the knowledge of Steve Blucher himself?

Oh, GREAT! Smooth move on my part :shock: ...
You would imagine there's more than one tech at DiMarzio in the loop about the Fly...(Blucher should have left schematics and info around, no?). My understanding is that he has been one of the main pickup engineers at DiMarzio. It seems a bit of a stretch this is a one man operation (maybe one could ask?).

If not, you could always use a different alias/username next time. :lol:

N.b. Always had great service through DiMarzio's email tech support.
1998 Fly Classic
chrisjscott
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Re: diagnosing bridge pickup of '97 Fly Deluxe

Post by chrisjscott »

Well, mystery somewhat solved: I just pulled the pickup out and tested it to find that both coils are completely failing. How any signal at all is making it through this thing is beyond me but, clearly, it's messed up (and not in an "EVH's magic humbucker that shouldn't work yet somehow does" kinda way). I also noted that the pickup end of the ground wire isn't even attached so, clearly, this thing as seen better days...

Fortunately, DImarzio mystery tech/incognito Steve Blucher (?) mentioned that it was possible to purchase a direct replacement, so I think that's the route I'm going.
Attachments
bridge-ground.jpg
bridge-s.jpg
bridge-n.jpg
'97 Parker Fly Deluxe (emerald green)
'97 Parker NiteFly NFV4 (black-signed by KP)
Parker PDF60 (white-hacked w/ EMGs & a Roland GK-3)
Parker PDF70 (currently being hacked up)
raw Parker Nitefly body and neck from Wilmington
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mmmguitar
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Re: diagnosing bridge pickup of '97 Fly Deluxe

Post by mmmguitar »

@chrisjscott, if you’re willing, I can walk you through potentially restoring the pickup and saving you money. I’m at home for the next hour and a half, and can grab a spare Fly pickup from my parts box to disassemble and upload photos of.
Summary of the Parker Guitars speculator market from 2020 onward: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory
chrisjscott
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Re: diagnosing bridge pickup of '97 Fly Deluxe

Post by chrisjscott »

Geez, @mmguitar - I hate to chew up your personal time but, if you're willing to do that then I'm willing to give it a go (what's the worst that will happen - I'll break the pickup)? Could be a fun project to try out!
'97 Parker Fly Deluxe (emerald green)
'97 Parker NiteFly NFV4 (black-signed by KP)
Parker PDF60 (white-hacked w/ EMGs & a Roland GK-3)
Parker PDF70 (currently being hacked up)
raw Parker Nitefly body and neck from Wilmington
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mmmguitar
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Re: diagnosing bridge pickup of '97 Fly Deluxe

Post by mmmguitar »

The first disclaimer is that the pup I'm using for reference is a Gen 2 with differing color codes and (what I assume is) shielding paint on the interior side of the baseplate. The second disclaimer is that, if the presumed short is occurring due to a break in the windings in either of the bobbins, you're typically faced with having to rewind it. Assuming the least, this post will address some other potential causes:

Once the two mounting polepieces and four phillips screws which secure the bobbin to the baseplate are out of the way, you'll see the soldering pad to which the gray grounding wire should be attached (upper left of photo 1). Note that wax adhesion may require you to gently pry the baseplate from the rest of the assembly.

In Gen 1 pickups (or at least the ones I've disassembled), the PCB-style baseplate is entirely nonferromagnetic; meaning the grounding wire is largely for the sake of preventing the polepieces from buzzing when touched. I mention that because the loose grounding wire in chrisjscott's pickup would only be causing the described issues if its frayed strands were causing a short by coming into contact with one of the pickup's other bare wires. So if you use a razor to carefully cut the section of shrink-tubing bundling the five wires where they converge at the pickup, you should be able to get some extra slack from the length of the grounding wire to resolder it to its pad on the baseplate.
1.JPG
In the next photo, we have the point where each coil's start and finish wires are soldered to the color-coded ones. Being as the pickup I'm using for reference is working as it should, I didn't cut away the insulating pickup tape covering the windings to show exactly where they're soldered together. But checking those connections for any breaks or fraying strands shorting themselves out will help diagnose whether the problem lies within this junction or within the windings themselves.
2.JPG
The third photo is me attempting to show how the pickup leads are fitted to lie in a channel formed between the ferromagnetic pickup spacer and the edge of the bobbins' winding tape. The baseplate design actually leaves you plenty of room to reassemble the pickup without the wires being perfectly back in place.
3.JPG
The fourth photo is intended to show the best place for cutting the pickup's insulating tape; where the space between the two bobbins means the tape isn't in contact with any windings. It also happens to be where the windings' junction to the color-coded wires are in Dimarzio Fly pickups; which means easier access for troubleshooting.
4.JPG
Lastly, we have our reassembled pickup. I didn't have enough hands to photograph myself using the multimeter - But suffice to say it confirmed the pup's clean bill of health. If you ended up cutting the pickup's insulating tape, a few wraps of common black electrical tape around the pickup should do the trick.
5.JPG
Summary of the Parker Guitars speculator market from 2020 onward: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory
chrisjscott
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Re: diagnosing bridge pickup of '97 Fly Deluxe

Post by chrisjscott »

Wow. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your willingness to help me out (@mmguitar and all here) - I'm just floored.

I got the baseplate off and see the solder point where my ground wire had broken off; no visible kinks or breaks in the insulation for the other wires in that immediate area, so I see no need to suspect short circuiting, as you've suggested.

The point where the lead wires connect to the windings is completely blocked with wax (see attached pic) so, short of digging at that wax (which seems like a recipe for going from bad to worse), my only option was to hook two leads (either red & black or white and green) to the multimeter and then wiggle that junction point, tap the pickup at various points, press against the sides a bit, etc. in the hopes of jostling something around in order to get a read - no joy.

Unless DImarzio comes back with an option to send this thing in to get it repaired (likely rewound), I'll probably opt for a same-to-same replacement; I'm thinking that's the best route.

Assuming that all goes as planned, I'd like to offer this broken pickup to you @mmguitar, in the hopes that it might be a useful addition to your parts collection...?
Attachments
PXL_20230122_221646024.jpg
'97 Parker Fly Deluxe (emerald green)
'97 Parker NiteFly NFV4 (black-signed by KP)
Parker PDF60 (white-hacked w/ EMGs & a Roland GK-3)
Parker PDF70 (currently being hacked up)
raw Parker Nitefly body and neck from Wilmington
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mmmguitar
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Re: diagnosing bridge pickup of '97 Fly Deluxe

Post by mmmguitar »

chrisjscott wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:27 pm Assuming that all goes as planned, I'd like to offer this broken pickup to you @mmguitar, in the hopes that it might be a useful addition to your parts collection...?
Sure, if you insist. I have a number of pickups with broken windings from over the years that I've been saving for when I finally feel up to jumping feet-first into winding as a hobby (throwing $$$ at Suhr Thornbuckers for these past few months makes me feel like it :lol:); and your PHWB1 would hopefully be given a second life alongside the others. How about I shoot you a PM if I ever get to that point; and in the meantime you'll have it around in case you or anyone else feel like taking it on as a project?

I'll be surprised if Dimarzio offers anything other than selling a replacement - They're not really in the business of rewinding anything beyond the scope of warranty work, these days. And even though an optimal outcome hasn't been reached, thank you again for detailing your journey poking around within the pickup - It's neither the first nor last time a Fly owner will be faced with troubleshooting this stuff.
Summary of the Parker Guitars speculator market from 2020 onward: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory
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vjmanzo
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Re: diagnosing bridge pickup of '97 Fly Deluxe

Post by vjmanzo »

mmmguitar wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 3:36 pm Lastly, we have our reassembled pickup…
Good lord, @mmmguitar! Greatest post ever?! 🙏🏆
chrisjscott
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Re: diagnosing bridge pickup of '97 Fly Deluxe

Post by chrisjscott »

Well, I guess getting this one rewound is one alternate option - I'd hate to just let it sit, busted, in a small tupperware container forever!

Anybody have any recommendations for someone with experience rewinding OG Parker Fly pickups (my only experience is with a '70s Strat pickup that went to Lindy Fralin)?
'97 Parker Fly Deluxe (emerald green)
'97 Parker NiteFly NFV4 (black-signed by KP)
Parker PDF60 (white-hacked w/ EMGs & a Roland GK-3)
Parker PDF70 (currently being hacked up)
raw Parker Nitefly body and neck from Wilmington
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vjmanzo
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Re: diagnosing bridge pickup of '97 Fly Deluxe

Post by vjmanzo »

chrisjscott wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 6:43 pm Anybody have any recommendations for someone with experience rewinding OG Parker Fly pickups…
Not a rewind, but I had Pete Biltoft of Vintage Vibe make a P90 for one of my Flys and I really like it! He made the baseplate himself and also—I can tell—had a good sense of what the pickup he was winding would sound like in a Fly. I’m quite happy with the way it’s voiced, and working with him was straightforward. He makes lots of pickups besides P90s.

I had a conversation with the Seymour Duncan folks in 2017 about a rewind and they said that if I sent them a DiMarzio pickup for the Fly, they’d rewind it as one of theirs, but I never went through with it.
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