Springs

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Noodler
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Re: Springs

Post by Noodler »

I may be in the minority on this opinion, but I never thought of the flat spring design in the Fly as being one of Ken's better ideas. I don't recall seeing any statements on how the flat spring improved upon the use of coil springs in a guitar. If there are good reasons that I'm unaware of, please share them.

Some of you may recall the huge battle I had getting the tuning on my Fly Mojo SLB stable. I had to do major surgery on the instrument and learned way more about the bridge assembly, the posts, and the spring/stop/block than I ever really wanted to know. As an engineer I found some of the design decisions questionable as they had the potential to introduce slop/inaccuracy for the tuning stability. The way the flat spring interfaces using it's flat edges riding in v-grooves is an example of one of those design elements that I had to "clean-up" to improve the return-to-center.

Has anyone considered a potential retrofit of the Fly flat spring design to use coil springs instead? Not sure if there's sufficient room in the cavity to pull that off (and I do realize that a flat spring is the opposite operation of a coil). This definitely would not be an option for the "purists", but I've never been hesitant to modify if I think it's an improvement. I installed the mag bypass wiring option in the SLB practically from day 1. :)
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vjmanzo
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Re: Springs

Post by vjmanzo »

Noodler wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:05 pm I don't recall seeing any statements on how the flat spring improved upon the use of coil springs in a guitar. If there are good reasons that I'm unaware of, please share them.
Thanks, @Noodler; I know a few folks that have asked this, and my team and I are working on reporting some data on this soon. The TL;DR version of this is that, the Fly flat spring, when set up properly, is damn-near unmatched in terms of nuance and its ability to "float"!

Sorry to be so short here, but the notion of working the spring/tension as a perfectly balanced cantilever is, IMO, bad-ass-ery of the highest order, and a coiled spring just can't compete. The benefits may be most noticeable to folks who use the bridge in floating mode, but, really: it was and still is ahead of its time. Of course, if things go wrong (springs fail, bridge not installed correctly, etc.) they go very wrong!
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Noodler
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Re: Springs

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vjmanzo wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:19 pm
Noodler wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:05 pm I don't recall seeing any statements on how the flat spring improved upon the use of coil springs in a guitar. If there are good reasons that I'm unaware of, please share them.
Thanks, @Noodler; I know a few folks that have asked this, and my team and I are working on reporting some data on this soon. The TL;DR version of this is that, the Fly flat spring, when set up properly, is damn-near unmatched in terms of nuance and its ability to "float"!

Sorry to be so short here, but the notion of working the spring/tension as a perfectly balanced cantilever is, IMO, bad-ass-ery of the highest order, and a coiled spring just can't compete. The benefits may be most noticeable to folks who use the bridge in floating mode, but, really: it was and still is ahead of its time. Of course, if things go wrong (springs fail, bridge not installed correctly, etc.) they go very wrong!
No arguments there... it was definitely thinking "outside the box" as is often stated. However, it was another one of the controversial design decisions and it is interesting that other models did use the more standard coil springs later (possibly just as a cost-savings measure).
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vjmanzo
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Re: Springs

Post by vjmanzo »

Noodler wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:36 pm …it was another one of the controversial design decisions and it is interesting that other models did use the more standard coil springs later…
Totally!!

Personally, I love the flat springs, but, wow—complicated much?! 🤣
vertigocycles
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Re: Springs

Post by vertigocycles »

Noodler wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:05 pm
Has anyone considered a potential retrofit of the Fly flat spring design to use coil springs instead? Not sure if there's sufficient room in the cavity to pull that off (and I do realize that a flat spring is the opposite operation of a coil). This definitely would not be an option for the "purists", but I've never been hesitant to modify if I think it's an improvement. I installed the mag bypass wiring option in the SLB practically from day 1. :)
VJ and I had a discussion about this very thing a while back...I can't recall if it was online or off. I plotted a rudimentary rate curve for the flat spring by using a bit of a cowboy setup on my milling machine. I'll see if I can find it.

After all of that, I measured the cavity and the space between spring seats, got some tension measurements from the string mfg's websites and started looking for stock coil springs that could handle what was being asked of them. I came across two problems that I can recall off hand. The first was packaging. It's a small space in which to put a couple of compression springs, especially with the limited options available in the spring rates needed to do the job. The second was the spring rate and how it might relate to the structure of the guitar itself. I really hope I can find the spring rate graph I made of the Parker spring...my memory is pretty poor for these things, but seem to recall that the spring force didn't change much through the length of travel. A standard compression spring is going to be putting considerably more force through the system if folks are dive bombing the trem bars. I'm not qualified to say whether the guitar can handle the additional force so I stopped pursuing the design.
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Noodler
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Re: Springs

Post by Noodler »

Thanks @vertigocycles - it figures that someone had pursued this option and I'm not surprised at all that it's not viable. So on with recreating the original flat springs...
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jester700
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Re: Springs

Post by jester700 »

I always figured it was for the same reason Ken used the custom pickup mounting configuration - that it allows a slightly thinner body.

I prefer the coil springs of my DF724 myself, but I was used to Floyd before getting into Parkers.
mmmguitar
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Re: Springs

Post by mmmguitar »

It seems the Reverb seller who was flipping the $1,800 Flys for $4,000 with 11 gauge springs installed is now selling the 10 gauge springs he took out of the guitars for $190.

In case the grift isn’t apparent: The guy buys a Fly for around two grand just to pull the 9 or 10 spring out of it, then buys a $100 11 spring from one of the other gouger listings for the sake of replacing the spring he removed. He then sells the guitar for double what he paid and waits a week before selling the guitar’s spring for double what he paid for the “replacement” (he knows darn well no one is buying the guitar because they prefer 11s). Rinse and repeat.

That’s like if the guy who sold you your car followed up with an offer to sell you the stereo he pulled out of it before it left the lot; just in case the 8 track deck wasn’t to your liking. And then your friend from work is like “Um didn’t you recognize me driving this car for the last three years, before I sold it to that lot last week for half what you just paid? I wonder if the dude fixed any of those electronics or rust issues…”

At this point, I’m just curious to see what the flippers resort to next. They’re not tech-savvy enough to part out the Gen 1 electronics; so I fear we’ll be seeing a few “as is” listings for 90s Fishman assemblies of dubious quality, along with their donor Flys listed as having “IMPROVED” guts utilizing whichever hasty replacement seemed cheapest at the time.
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Noodler
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Re: Springs

Post by Noodler »

mmmguitar wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:49 pm It seems the Reverb seller who was flipping the $1,800 Flys for $4,000 with 11 gauge springs installed is now selling the 10 gauge springs he took out of the guitars for $190.

In case the grift isn’t apparent: The guy buys a Fly for around two grand just to pull the 9 or 10 spring out of it, then buys a $100 11 spring from one of the other gouger listings for the sake of replacing the spring he removed. He then sells the guitar for double what he paid and waits a week before selling the guitar’s spring for double what he paid for the “replacement” (he knows darn well no one is buying the guitar because they prefer 11s). Rinse and repeat.

That’s like if the guy who sold you your car followed up with an offer to sell you the stereo he pulled out of it before it left the lot; just in case the 8 track deck wasn’t to your liking. And then your friend from work is like “Um didn’t you recognize me driving this car for the last three years, before I sold it to that lot last week for half what you just paid? I wonder if the dude fixed any of those electronics or rust issues…”

At this point, I’m just curious to see what the flippers resort to next. They’re not tech-savvy enough to part out the Gen 1 electronics; so I fear we’ll be seeing a few “as is” listings for 90s Fishman assemblies of dubious quality, along with their donor Flys listed as having “IMPROVED” guts utilizing whichever hasty replacement seemed cheapest at the time.
Maybe I missed it, but has anyone posted the seller ID for each of these guys that are pulling this crap? If not, let's get their eBay, Reverb, etc. IDs posted up here so we know who to watch out for. TIA
mmmguitar
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Re: Springs

Post by mmmguitar »

@noodler, my disappointments lie with the trends of the marketplace, rather than the individual reprobates doing things they’re ultimately free to do. If I was informed of a miscreant deliberately violating Reverb’s T&Cs or defrauding people, I would pin a heads-up warning people to avoid that particular seller (thankfully, none of the recent and semianonymous scammers booted from the Facebook groups seem to have appeared here).

As it is, I’m hoping that highlighting the observed practices I feel are in poor taste is more of a service (and a flimsy pretense for me to rant) than dragging names through the mud - I’d hate to be the guy who blows the whistle on a seller trying to offload a ton of hoarded Flys and accessories based on what they perceive to be current listing practices, then subsequently learn that hefty medical expenses or other circumstances precipitated their listings.

The number of Parker Reverb listings is so few that, without throwing particular sellers under the bus, an informed buyer should be able to infer that the $4,000 Fly Google says sold for $2,000 last month may be a poor investment. Same goes for the $190 stamped section of corroded steel. But that’s merely my own sentiment. In all honesty, I haven’t revised old posts to do with informing prospective Fly owners of what to watch for because, at present, the “typical” Fly buyer is someone with a higher level of disposable income than me.
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vjmanzo
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Re: Springs

Post by vjmanzo »

+1 for @mmmguitar’s sentiment
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Fly Rod
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Re: Springs

Post by Fly Rod »

Hello This is my 1st Post
Came across a Parker Fly Marked BP USA Fly P0706055
It has had the Trem Spring Break & it caused the unthinkable
Yes that's right it broke a huge hole in the top of the guitar
I acquired the remains for a bargain minus the adjustment parts for the Tremolo
Put a spring in a syringe & cut it to fit in the body to act as a trem spring for now
Made a piece to act as a hard tail.. Pics to come of that..
Got the back plate & battery box & nut but nothing else

My Name is Gary BTW = Fly Rod..
Needless to say I need a .009" spring ASAP
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mark74
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Re: Springs

Post by mark74 »

Holy smokes :o

How are you planning on fixing that hole in the top? Or perhaps put a clear acrylic sheet on it with some cool lights under and just call it a mod :lol:
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Fly Rod
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Re: Springs

Post by Fly Rod »

Was planning on routing down & making a rectangular patch of poplar to fit the HUGE Hole..
SGlue it in place with Titebond & bodywork it smooth & possibly some fiberglass auto body filler, Then sand & paint..
Not sure about the adjustment wheels slot as I don't have those parts anyhow?? Where? :(

Ordered an adjustment Bolt from eBay + The T Bar.. But the Spring & those CRAZY Prices.
I will have to pass, Besides the nut is cut for .009"-.042"s anyhow, Don't wanna spend $100-$190 for a 10 or 12 spring?? OUCH!! :o
Could live with the .010"-.046" strings but would have to cut the nut & Pay $200 for the only 10 spring currently available. :cry:
Thought about ordering a Steinberger's Blue trem spring & making up something adjustable similar to my syringe idea with thread all & adjustment nuts + washers..

Was hoping by joining the forum Here I could get in on these Reproduction Springs that are in the making.. HELP ME!!
I made up something similar to this, Just not as Pretty YET!! = Hard Tail Conversion.
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Fly Rod
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Re: Springs

Post by Fly Rod »

Just soldered a SwitchCraft output jack in my Son's Fender Swinger..

Here's where I am with The Parker Fly so far today..
Found the widget I fenagled up to block the tremolo..
I can see on the PC Board where the positive + wire for the 9 Volt will solder on & the ground - looks to have been hooked to the output jack to make contact with ground to turn the piezo board on/off when the guitar cord is inserted..
Need to check it with the Fluke anyhow & see for sure..
Sure the passive pickups will work without the battery so I'm going to string it up, I found the nut too!!
It's OK but needs a new one, Chipped by the low E on the most outside, Could just soften it a bit..
Got .009"-.042" Super Slinkys in the Pink bag..

Here's my Tremolo Block Widget I Fenagled up From Scraps..
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mmmguitar
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Re: Springs

Post by mmmguitar »

Welcome to our little “waiting for springs” party, @Fly Rod. I’ll be watching your restoration project with great interest, and replied to your post in the other thread.
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Fly Rod
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Re: Springs

Post by Fly Rod »

Well put me in for a .009" Spring..
I will offer $100 to the FlyClone Project to be a Beta tester..
Not going to pay that for the .012" Spring on Reverb--> https://reverb.com/item/35369568-parker ... k-read-why $84.96 + $9.95 S&H , JFYI The .010" Spring has vanished = Someone paid $200 for it.. OUCH!!
My Guitar is unplayable, Not Really, without one.. Got it Blocked for now..
Will get the Tremolo Arm & T-Bar & stand with my hand out at the curb begging..
Might get a aluminum adjustment nut made without the knurling BUT would bet there's someone here in machining that could make it with ease.. Or one of my buddies @ TalkBass.. I'm still thinking a open lug nut or one from HD... Once I find out the size & threads per inch etc.
Ordered a Truss Rod Nut for a Parker that may get altered to become a tremolo adjusting nut..
NOT Light Weight as Ken Parker's Original Design Called For.. BUT?? Maybe a Plastic Nut..
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vjmanzo
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Re: Springs

Post by vjmanzo »

Fly Rod wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:22 pm I will offer $100 to the FlyClone Project to be a Beta tester..
Thanks, @Fly Rod; we'll set up a public beta when we're ready, and there will be no need to buy in.

We have a talented team cranking away at this right now and, I may have mentioned here already, but will do so anyway: our goal is to make an improved that we can sell for around $40. I, personally, would not buy a $200 spring without knowing where in its lifecycle it is; all springs develop microscopic holes in them, which ultimately grow and fail.
Fly Rod wrote: Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:22 pm Might get a aluminum adjustment nut made without the knurling BUT would bet there's someone here in machining that could make it with ease..
Are you referring to/looking for a threaded rod like this with the notch? I may have an extra...let's continue the conversation in this thread.
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